Varvara Lyalyagina is a true trailblazer in her native Russia. She’s done an amazing job of building her online business over many years and has pivoted, niched and adapted as her own skills and personal brand have grown. She’s living proof that the best route to success is never a straight line
Varvara Lyalyagina is a founder of Start Blog Up (startblogup.com). She works with Russian speaking creative entrepreneurs and teach them to spread the word about themselves by building their platform.
She's is a leader of emerging community of Russian-speaking creative entrepreneurs Studio (startblogup.com/studio), that is functioning as a membership site. In April 2019 Studio celebrated a 1 year anniversary and currently there are 130 members inside.
Varvara graduated the Saint Petersburg University as a journalist, worked in journalism and PR and had a 10 year career in Procter & Gamble human resources. She created her first blog in 2002 and in 2014 launched a blog Home Where You Want to Come (hometocome.com) that helped her to leave corporate world and start her entrepreneurial journey.
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Thanks for joining me for this episode of gravity, the digital marketing entrepreneurs podcast. I'm Bob gentle and every week I'm joined by digital marketing business owners, creators, consultants and practitioners who share what makes their business work. Whether you run your own business, or you're just thinking of stepping out on your own for the first time, you're in the right place. If you're new to the podcast, and welcome along, just take a second right now to subscribe to the show and your player. That way you won't miss new episodes, and you can dig into some older ones when you finished with this one. This week, I'm joined by Vera Lena Lena Fiverr is a true Trailblazer in a native Russia, she's done an amazing job of building her online business over many years. And she's pivoted niched and adapted as her own skills and personal brand have grown. She's living proof to the best route to success is never a straight line. I love our story. hope you will too. So let's dive in.
This week, I'm delighted to welcome via the listener to the podcast five area would you let me be like to just start by telling us a little bit about who you are, where you are, and the kind of work you do.
Hello, Bob. I'm so so glad to be here. Thank you so much for inviting. And yes, I am via usually it's like what's what is the name very strange one. I usually say that you can call me Barbara because my name is just the Russian version of the Barbara
name. did not know that.
Yeah, it's it's the same. It's like warrior or conquer. Yeah, so the meaning of it is it's a Greek name. Very popular in the world. But this is the Russian version. And obviously, I am Russian. So I live in Russia. I live in beautiful St. Petersburg city. If you are ever in the city, let me know. I'm happy to to welcome new people here and to show Russia. I am I was born here. I was raised here. I studied here in the university and I studied journalism. I didn't work much in the journalism just a little bit. But I understand that whatever I did in my life was really very connected to the communication. So I will I started in working in public relations for non governmental organizations of some Petersburg. I also had lots of international experience. I studied European studies in Finland, I went to Brazil to work there for the internship. And at some point, when I graduated the university, I was thinking like, okay, I really want this international experience, I want them the scope. And that's that's how I appear to be in Procter and Gamble. And they hired me in human resources, I was not picky about the department. So they hired me for human resources. And almost for 10 years, I was doing my career in Procter and Gamble in the corporate world in the office, nine to five, as you say, for me, it was usually 10 to six and later and more late hours of work, to be honest. So I did the career there, I started as a talent supply manager, I ended as, as a chair, leader of the plant, somewhere in the middle of Russia. And at some point, I started to think that is it is is it it? Like what what will what will be my achievements? And then I don't know, maybe not even end of my life, but like in 10 or 15 years? And will it be some another corporate world and climbing the office, you know, corporate ladder career? And, yeah, I wanted to try something new. It was a difficult process for me, you know, it, it sounds like okay, I decided that I want to try something else. I quit. And I, I traveled around the world, I came up with a business idea. I made the business It sounds very easy. On the reality of the process of making the decision to quit the corporate job, what took me four years with up and downs. But it took me four years, it took me asking for for coaching advice, career coaching advice. And yeah, but then finally I did this, I went to travel, I had different ideas. I was thinking, for example, about piracy organization about subscription boxes, about interior design, interior styling, I even went to to the UK to study interior design for this. But then finally, I came up to the idea that I love blogging, and they understood that I'm doing blogging since 2002, basically, quite
Oh, yeah. Of course, it was not that kind of blogging that it is now. But it is from 2002. And, yes, so I started my, my blog, my new blog about interiors about home. And it was also capturing this journey of the new life. And I think that it helped me a lot in terms of getting the confidence, you know that I have something else out of the corporate world. Because after almost 10 years, like all your contacts, everything, all your life is kind of in the in the office. So yeah, I started the blog, about interiors about home home where you want to come this is that was the name, and it is the name still. And after some time, after quitting after traveling, I understood that this interior design thing, party organization, all this is kind of secondary for me. And what I'm interested in is to continue this blogging, and I started coaching people and doing trainings and teach, teach people to how to blog and how to communicate how to tell this story, how to talk about themselves. And as I was from the business from the corporate world, it was not interesting for me just to talk about, you know, lifestyle blogging, it was more interesting to me to talk about, like, the blog as a tool, not just the blog as, as your like, Whatever you do, right as a career, not blogging as a career, but blog as a tool to get to your goals. And yeah, so this is how it all started. And this is what I'm doing now I'm basically I'm working with Russian speaking creative entrepreneurs, all around the world, about 50% of my clients are located in Russia, and 50% allocated all around the world, starting from Ukraine, to Europe, Argentina, the United States of America, New Zealand, Australia, all these kind of nice, interesting places. And, yeah, I teach them how to spread the word, spread the word about themselves, and how to how to make the word world know about themselves. And it's a lot about blogging and having their own platform, but it's also about social media, about speaking engagements about personal brand and all this kind of stuff.
Yeah. And are most of your audience slash clients also working in the Russian language?
Most of them? Yes. But not all of them.
And I think 2002 is very early for blogging. I mean, yes, there were lots of blogs around in 2002. But it was still kind of early days, it wasn't routine that everybody would have a blog as it kind of is now. But in Russian language, I imagine it wasn't swamped the way that it probably is. Now. You must have been, I can only imagine you must have stood out back then. Has the time that you've been involved in blogging in Russian language? Would you see that as an advantage now that you've been doing it so long? you've established such a big footprint, that, that that's been helpful for you?
It's an interesting question. I think that at some point, you're right. It will. But we should understand that it was different timing. 2002. There were no social media. I remember how I, how I learned first time about social media, I couldn't get the idea. Like, why do I need to have this friends. In the social media, it was not even Facebook, that time it was orchids, the Brazilian the Brazilian social network that is closed now. But that time, the blogging was a lot like the social media today a lot like Instagram, or just Facebook updates. Now. It was something like I did this. I did that I am, I will be in the center of the city tonight who wants to go to the cinema. Or? I was. At that time I was a student. I learned journalism. So sometimes I was writing some, you know, something, I was practicing my writing skills, which I'm embarrassed now. Yes, so it was no, no headlines, no structure. No pictures that I am. Because there were no digital cameras at that time. Yeah. But I would say that in in my circles, and the first people who started to to blog, and to have this live journal, this is basically the platform where I started. In Russia, the first people who who started to do this were writers and poets, and some writers and poets. They became famous because of that platform that time. And I was in I was in the journalism, I had the publishing house next door to my faculty where I was, I was studying journalism. So in my circles, like my people, we, it was pretty common to have this, this blog, you know, I was one of the first who joined this movement. But pretty quickly, it was it was pretty common in our circles, but But still, yes, I noticed that I'm one of the first who start to use Facebook, I'm one of the first who start to use Instagram. And kind of I have this advantage, at least I can say, you know what, I started blogging in 2002. But of course, it was not this kind of blogging that we have now.
Just as you were speaking, I was sort of throwing myself back to 2002. And what the internet look like back then. And most people weren't even connected to the internet and in 2002 that's, that's phenomenal.
That was Yeah, this
cards, you know, I seek you. Oh,
I don't know if you
there are probably some some differences between countries. But yeah, this is a sweet time of internet cafes and to be connected to the internet during the night. Because when you are connected to the internet, you you are taking over the phone line, right. And somebody important can call your parents. So
yeah, lovely times. So casting yourself forward. I mean, 2002, you were you were blogging? You were a student, I'm guessing. Do you remember when you made your first money online? And I just mean, I don't mean big money. I mean, oh, my God, somebody paid me and I don't know them.
This is a very long time forward to this. Because I was not even thinking about making money online. That time. I don't even think that somebody was thinking that lots of people were thinking, it was just the way of communicate with friends and make connections. And what I remember, maybe there was something but not that I remember, what I really remember is my first affiliate income that I caught, that I got already in my current blog home, where you want to come and I put some affiliate links to the books. And it was one year after I started the blog. And it not because it took so long, but just because at the beginning, I even didn't know what does it mean affiliate links, how you can make money on this. And, but at some point, I, I knew this I put this affiliate links, and I earned to Robert rebels and 82 let's say Russian sense. Yeah. So it's so tiny. It's, I even get I think it's one cent something like this. If you if you make the exchange, it's so tiny, I cannot even exchange it, you know, in the dollars a pound. And, and they call my friend and they said, Oh my God, this money. Somebody just bought one book, I think something. I made this money online. And she said, Okay, good. I'm so happy for you don't tell anybody about this. Because it's embarrassing. This money is just so tiny that it's embarrassing. Don't tell anybody I said yeah. Still, I'm telling this story. Because Yeah, I think that was my first money online. And it was so so extremely tiny. You can even imagine. And comparing to the corporate salary that they had. It was like nothing, you cannot even buy anything. But yeah, so yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that it was half of the 50 cents, 50 cents. Half of the of the dollar. And, but I was more happy, I think then then any first salary or something? I don't remember any first money, for example that I made in my life, but I remember this affiliate affiliate income.
Yeah, because I guess you've you've unlocked the ability to achieve some potential, something can start now. I think until you've made that first Penny, you don't really believe it can happen. So where did it go from there?
Basically, so affiliate, this is a funny story. But affiliate income is not some I really rely on. It's a nice, nice thing that that is added. But my main online income, if I can say that it's online. My main income was coaching, and afterwards, the group trainings. And when I came back from the trip that I did, after I sabbatical trip that I did after I quit the job, I'm I came back, and I, I was thinking what what should I do? Then I decided, Okay, it will be blogging. And as soon as I decided I announced the first webinar that I'm going to do, and then the first webinar, I was talking five steps, how to create a blogger's five factors that are important for successful blog. I had pretty much people for the first webinar, I should say, I closed the registration and 100 people because they had 100 spots in the webinar room. And I was afraid that what if everybody comes? It's funny to think about this now. And I need to give them all the sports.
Now I know, you might think that's funny, but I think that's a very common anxiety for people who haven't done webinars.
Yeah, but now with all the experience, you know, I think, Oh, my God, like I you are like, if you have 30% of people, right to come, who are registered. But I closed, I'm like, Okay, I need everybody to give the sport I gave few extra to some several of my friends who, who registered later. And, and I did this webinar, I didn't sell anything there. But after that webinar, I was contacted by two girls, and one set. And both of them basically said that they are interesting to work with me and one became became the one on one client. And I started to work with her. Before I had some coaching where I tested it. And I did it for free. You know, I I came to people and I was like, you, you you have a blog? Do you need some advice for me? I can give it to you for free. Or some people were writing to me something like I'm reading your blog, and it's so interesting. And I'm also interested to, to have a blog one day in this. And they said, Oh, really, I can help you with this. Let's have a coaching. It's free now. But after that webinar that I had, it was kind of like official. And after that, and it was it was four years ago. Yeah, it was May 2015. So it was four years ago. And after that I do not take any free clients. Right? Yeah. So that that was these, these two girls, basically, they were my two first I consider them as two first clients. One was a coaching. And another one, she went to the training session, the group group coaching.
And I'm interested to understand the mechanics of of this little bit. Because you've been blogging for a long time you built up a good, reputable blog. But a blog audience tends to be quite a passive audience. There's simply for a lot of people where they haven't monetized our blog, a number in Google Analytics. So let's say four years ago, do you remember what your average monthly traffic look like?
Oh, my God, like I don't remember.
But it was small. It was extremely small. Now it's, it's like, ridiculous how how small it was. I think it was something like I don't know, like 1000 per month, maybe?
Yeah, I will kind of make sense. I mean, that's a that's quite a that's not a quiet website. But it's not a busy blog either.
Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
And what does your traffic look like? Now? I mean, don't tell me in specific numbers of its private, it's curious to know,
you know, I'm always confused when somebody asks me about the traffic because I have two sites. Right. So one is that lifestyle blog, and it is still, it still is. And there I I talk a lot about just my life. My all this interior things that I'm still interested in how I redecorate my place where I leave some interesting stories, something like this. So it's very lifestyle. And this four years ago story, when I was thinking, where should I go, what direct direction to take? Basically, when I decided that it will be blogging, that was a big decision for me, whether I should create a new site, or stay with this blog, and I decided to make it the new site, which seems very logical decision now. But that time, it was not so clear for me. But I made it different sites. So it started blogging up basically, this is the name of my, my business now. And there is a blog there as well. But that one is blog about blogging, about the is the blog about speaking, engagement, networking, personal brand, social media, all this kind of stuff for Russian speaking creative entrepreneurs. And when I compare traffic, the traffic on the lifestyle blog is is very good. It's, let me say it's, it's about I have about 2500 people every day.
That's pretty good.
So yeah, so it's 2500 people, somewhere in some citizens, for example, around the new year, I had 3000 people daily. And now it's a little bit lower. But I'm not as frequent to be honest. Right. So it lives by itself. But this is impressive number to share and to tell. But basically, I didn't have much of the income from that side. Yeah. So I have some advertising opportunities. And definitely this website, this blog, is my portfolio, because this is how lots of people know about me and how I should how I could tell people like, look what I'm doing, I can do this. It's not you know, the webinar about webinars or the blog about blogging where I don't know the conference about conferences, right? Yeah. So this is the real stuff that I'm doing. And I'm kind of testing lots of things there. I use this blog a lot in examples of my when I do my job. But the other website, and the blog is terrible gossip. Basically, the traffic there is not as huge. It's about 500 people, David there. So it's significantly less than the other one. But basically, all my income comes from the start blog up. And this is what I tell people. And I think maybe the listeners will be interested in this that it numbers are not important.
I think what I what was going through my mind when I asked that is you're talking about a webinar and 100 registrants. And in order to achieve that, you must have a foundational audience to bring into the webinar. And I was just just interested to know what your audience at the time look like. And you've answered that quite well. So looking at your business now, how things have changed over those four years. You have the membership website, you have the coaching clients, you still have blog, how have things changed over those four years? What does your business look like now and what I'm also interested to understand you speak about your your client base, being the creative entrepreneur, and I'm interested to understand what that actually means for you.
Yeah, so I that's nice to say that not so much changed, basically that I'm stick to the main idea. And yeah, this is Russian speaking creative entrepreneurs. For me. I when I say this, I mean people who are creative inside and who are coming to the business to make the business to make them the project, this is how I call it because usually my people that they could be a little bit freaking out, you know about the business, because they're just starting out but the business project and that that coming to it from the creative standpoint, they they to get very creatively and they do not take it as you know, okay, so how much money I can get squeeze out of people, you know, this is not about pushy techniques, some salesy sleazy. I think this is how the sad, there are lots of words for this, right. But I think you understand what that mean. But they are, they're coming to this in terms of like, Okay, what, what can I do for the for the world? How can I express my creativity, and I'm helping them with, okay, you can express your creativity and make a business project out of it and how you can not only give but get something for yourself. So this is this is basically what I want mean by creative entrepreneurs. So basically, it's everybody who are not about pushy salesy nasty business, who who want to create anything, but most of my clients are. Those who are helping other people like therapist, coaches, photographers, artists, guides in different cities, Russian speaking, guides in all over, all over the world. Some people who do yoga, yoga teachers, dietary coaches, people who work around the healthy eating or make cakes, all this kind of things. So this, these are basically my people. And they started to work with them for years ago. I did more coaching and some trainings. But yeah, at some point, I understood and it was, yeah, it was. I don't know, at some point, like, three years ago, maybe two and a half years ago, people started to tell me like my clients, they started to tell me, Oh, my God, the coaching program is, is ending. We have your support, I will miss you. And I created the Facebook group for for those who worked with me, for my clients, very close one, not so many people there, right. So not for everybody. And I was like, okay, but but you have this Facebook group, you can ask questions there. And from the beginning, I had to be there, for a pretty long time, I had the feeling that if I continue to sell them something, then it would mean that I did a bad job, you know. So there is a coaching program, there are eight sessions where there is a group training, and there is like 10, lessons, 10 meetings, 10 webinars in this training. And when people told me over and over at the end that we want more of you, we want to continue, maybe we will come and have more, you know, ad hoc coaching sessions with you. I was thinking like, yeah, you just asked questions in the Facebook group, and I was thinking, Oh, my God, if this happens, it means like, I did a bad job. I didn't tell them everything, right. And my coaching program. Only afterwards, I realized that how wrong I am. And if people ask me, I should give them what they ask. And,
and it doesn't mean that I did a bad job at all. And at that point of time, myself, I was trying to get more knowledge for myself. My first idea was to hire a mentor. But then I understood that it's very expensive. And I didn't have that money that. And I was like, Okay, so what what can I do, and then I, I joined the membership site. And I was wowed. I was like, Oh my god, this is brilliant. This is amazing. Because this is so affordable. And at the same time you have access to the top experts, you can ask them question, almost like in the 1000 per hour coaching, right, you have their attention, you ask them questions, they know you, you have the trainings, you have community, you have so much. And I understood that I did a lot of that with this free Facebook group that that I did for my clients. But I was not spending so much time there because it was free. And so I still balanced my time, right? But I enjoyed it so much. And I was like oh my god, this is amazing. I can have its win win for everybody, they pay me money, small amount, they get the access to me, this is what they want. And because of the scope, and because I have a number of this kind of people, I have a very decent income. And when I realized that, I decided that this is my my jam, I made the decision very quickly when I understood the business model. I was like, This is what I want to do. I wanted to the membership site, and they started to work on it. But the thing is that it took me one year from the idea to basically to the till the launch. But yeah, so this is how I came up with memberships up side. And now it's the main project that I have. It's basically my, almost my full time job. And and I'm very, very happy of how it's all going.
You spoke a lot about what members what, before you actually launched the membership membership site, people were telling you, they wanted something. But now you've done it. If you were to survey your members, what's the one thing you think they would say they value the most? Oh, maybe a difficult question.
It's a difficult question. Because I think that there are a lot. One thing that they value about me, but what they tell me when I talked to them, and when they have the feedback, they This is what I what I try to do as a part of my, my brand and my personal brand as well. I try to be I don't know if I could say it in English, but we say the Russian like to be very ecological, you know, in selling, I'm not pushing, I'm just offering I'm just saying this is what I have. And people like this, I say that I am my distinction from my competitors is that I'm not pushing the the sales, and I'm doing very, I say the western way, European and American one. This is what I learned from the top leaders in online marketing. The other thing that they they really value is the structure that I give the the structure and the quality of the materials that I produce. Because overall on the market, the quality is unfortunately, pretty low. Like I'm talking in general, of course, for example, there are I don't know, like online courses that are delivered in Instagram. And the trainer could be sitting in the swimming suit, you know, doing her online lesson, which I can not even call an online lesson, right? Yeah, we're like, there is no PDF, the PDFs designed there is like you know, some trainers, write something, scribble something on the paper and then take a picture with a shadow need from the phone and send it to their, their students. I've seen things like this, this are extremes, of course. But just to give you the perspective of what is going on. And I'm, I'm learning myself from the top leaders in the industry in the world. This is like the trainings that I'm buying, coaching and all this kind of thing, the membership. And I see the standards there. And I'm trying to bring the same standards to the Russian speaking market. And
I think that people
who really value this kind of things, they they see this in my product and my membership in my coaching.
This is then another thing is that I'm very
I think that I try to be very accessible to people, especially for for my clients. And for the members of my membership site. I'm answering all all the questions like 99% of the questions I am. I'm not, you know,
somewhere there the expert
that is coming to people only when there is a q&a day office hours once a month. No, I'm always ready. And I'm always for them. And I think that they value this as well.
And one thing that I often speak about in the podcast with guests is specialization. And your specialized, obviously, in the training and the coaching, there was probably along the way a temptation, maybe not so much in the blogging space. But you're a social media expert blogging expert, I should say, well pay me and I'll do it for you. And you've managed to avoid that really neatly. But by specializing in Russian language audience, it really does put you in a very special category, because you will then only really have to compete with people operating in Russian language. I'm curious to know what is your competition? If there is any actually look like in the Russian language? This is?
It's It's interesting. It's interesting question, we have the that in for business. This is right how we call it the services, the online business and the services of selling just the information coaching more trainings is developing a lot here.
Band lots of people are
saying that, oh my god, it's it's too much already. Still, when I'm looking at the
American market, for example,
I understand that Oh, no, it's not too much. It can be much more. Yeah. And so, there is there are lots of people who are who do coaching in online space. I seriously I do not consider them very much as competitors. I talk more about colleagues, I usually call them colleagues.
I still I'm very competitive person. To be honest, I like to compete. This is my jam. I know that some people say like, Oh, no, like I'm I want to be nice for everybody. No competition is kills me. I like the good competition. This drives the when I done have when when some of my colleagues say for example, that, okay, I'm going out of the market because of this or that reasons, or I'm pregnant, I will have a baby, I will slow down. I'm like, Oh, no, where I'm going, I'm competing here. Come back. Hey, I don't want to be alone. Yes, so I like the good competition. I think that my big advantage is that
from the English resources.
And I apply this for the Russian speaking market. And that's why I I like my niche. And I like my clients I at least now I'm not thinking about English speaking. Audience, right. I'm, I'm very focused on the Russian speaking people. Because I see how I can bring them value I can work, this is what I do I work all this. Work out all this materials that exists in English, I work with the top people I learned from the top people in the industry in English. And then I rework it for the Russian market for the Russian specifics for the Russian language, and then I bring it to people and that with this I read, raise the standards,
what I see my colleagues are doing, they
they learn a lot from each other, they not have so much. I don't know desire possibility may be language knowledge is a barrier here as well. So it's different for different people. But what what they do is they kind of they're a little bit stuck in the Russian Russian language. Soup. This is how I call in your boy boiled in the soup, you know? So and it's more difficult for them to Yeah, to have something new to have the new ideas. It's always easier when when you have to wider perspective and those of my colleagues who have this who,
who see who
see how you see who observe the the markets, right, the international markets, they have disadvantage as well. The is where they can clearly clearly see. Yeah,
very, we've been speaking for quite a long time. And I have a couple of questions I really, really want to ask before we finish up, okay, the main one is, and I would challenge anybody to go and have a look at what viral does online because one thing that really impresses me is everything is so well styled and pretty. your Instagram is really well presented, your Facebook is really well presented your website's really, really well represented. And particularly the images you use, you manage to take incredible selfies that most of us could only dream of. And I'm interested to know what kind of work goes into that. Is that just natural for you? Or is or do you have to work at that?
I think it's both. I would not say that it's not natural. It's at some point, yes, it's natural. On the other side, when I when I'm looking at the pictures that I was taking before I understand how far I came, right. So it's still daily work. And it's a lot about looking what other people are doing, and learning constantly. So it's something it's about filters and all this applications on the phone. And programs like canvas and learning how to use them because like it's a skill, though they're so simple to use. It's you really need to work on it. I'm looking at the examples. I'm using Pinterest a lot. And I'm changing things over and over. So if you look what I did five years ago, you would say like, Oh my god, like it's ugly, like yellow light, all this kind of things. But so it's both,
I like it, I enjoy it.
I think that I have this kind of like, maybe not talent, but the thing inside of me for this, but it's also still a lot of learning and observing of what other people are doing.
Well, I think it stands out in any language. I think your stuff is so polished. I mean, I can do the translation. But actually, the images talk so well as well. And if people want to connect with you, how would you like them to do that?
I think the best way is through my website, and my website is start blog up.com. So start blog up.
I'll put a link to that in the chat.
there. You can find the links to the facebook facebook page, basically, like it's easy to find by that name everywhere. But the links are there, the email is there, the YouTube channel is there if you are interested in listening and what you mean speaking in Russian.
But honestly, even if you don't speak Russian, I would suggest going and having a look because there are lessons to learn from non Russian speakers there. Absolutely. Thank you have IRA, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. You've been a brilliant guest. And we're going to see you in the UK again soon.
I am planning to come in September for the membership conference that the membership guys are organizing in Newcastle. So I will be in September. And I hope that I will I plan of course to go to London and to travel a little bit around this date.
Well, if anyone's listening and wants to catch up at the retain conference, let us know and I'm sure you'll have a great time with her. Vera, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Over the years info bar has been building things up. She's focused on doing a handful of things really well. She is focused, and she works with clarity and our audiences responded by rallying around her buying her coaching training events by joining her membership community. I'd encourage everyone to check her out online. She has a lot to teach us all about great confident personal branding. Before I go, just a quick reminders to subscribe. And if you haven't already and join our Facebook group, you can find the link from the website Bob gentle com Or just search gravity, digital marketing and Facebook and you'll find us easily enough. If you did enjoy the show, then I would love for you to review it on iTunes. It would mean a lot to me and it's the very best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name is Bob gentle thanks again to Wagner for giving us your time this week. And to you for listening. See you next time.